Dominar Rygel XVI

[Spedoinkel]

Originally Posted by gliadrachan

Rygel is the oldest, judging by the time he'd spent in captivity with Durka.

And as the saying goes, "age and treachery will always beat youth and skill".

I'm sure we had come to the conclusion earlier that Zhaan is 800 and Rygel around 400.

Besides, there have been plenty of cultures where human heads have been used as a means of intimidation (Celts, Headhunters, etc.)

British.

[bubblez]

Originally Posted by gliadrachan

...And as the saying goes, "age and treachery will always beat youth and skill".

Topped by the saying that goes, "even age and treachery must yield to the aftermath of a late night at Taco Bell"

Originally Posted by Darth Buddha

Besides, there have been plenty of cultures where human heads have been used as a means of intimidation (Celts, Headhunters, etc.)

I concur with Spedoinkel. Moreover, doesn't everyone know the origins of football?

Originally Posted by SueDonym

My god I'll have to try that.

Heavens to Mergatroid, _everyone_ needs to try that

Okay, okay I'll concede that there's a 90% possibility that Rygel is _actually_ a dominar.
Now, given a situation that's absolutely dire... bare knuckles...down to brass tacks...one slice of pizza left in the box... would Rygel sell out any one or all of the crew? i.e. resorting to his base character

[SueDonym]

See, my problem is that I don't agree with other people's definitions of the "base" character. I just have a different take on it.

I don't think that John is fundamentally a nice guy; I think he's just never needed to be a true bastard before (he accomplished things young and with apparent ease).
I don't think that Aeryn is cold and just learned to open up; I think she's always been more open, did a good job of covering to survive and now has a chance to show herself.
I don't think that Scorpius is fundamentally evil; I think he's tormented and consistently tries to do the right thing in a way that's often personally detrimental
(yes, depends on what you think is right).

And I certainly don't think that Rygel's core motivation is simply greed.

Yes, he's very greedy.
But
A. It's usually part of a process -- in the course of USING things like money to try to regain his throne. It's a means to an end, which isn't necessarily greed and sometimes involves surprising self-sacrifice.
B. It often feels like something he thinks he 'ought' to be doing, rather than who he is.

He *wants* to be a leader. He sometimes fails at that. More to the point, he seemed initially coddled

Plus, if JC can have negative reactions to being tortured briefly (and he's definitely entitled to!), then Rygel certainly is carrying baggage after 100 years of it. This was shown briefly in the eps with Durka, but his *need* to grab things and surround himself with trophy wealth could just as easily be a manifestation of his reaction to being torn from comfort and security and beaten, tortured, humiliated and burned...probably starved too. If that was the case (although for the most part I've separated off his gluttony) eating everything you can get your hands on, saving it in paranoid anticipation of a day of starvation, grabbing what goods you can get in a rather pathetic immitation of what you once had...well, it's all more sympathetic and understandable isn't it. It's not so much greed as damage and desperation.

When push comes to shove Rygels done a LOT of *talking* about selling people out, but he's never actually done it...unless I missed that ep. In fact, he's been self sacrificing and heroic. Sure he's often scared and reluctant. He's small and has been humiliated and held helpless for cycles. But doesn't it make it more courageous when he sucks it up and follows through. He definitely has had several myself-over-others moments. Undenighable. But I think this could also be part of what he learned in prison as well as being a dominar (the good for onesself is the good of the people). Prisoners tend to sell each other out very quickly and being a nice guy doesn't necessarily ensure survival in that situation (the classic 'Prisoner's dillema' case).

He needs to learn to be a leader again, but I think he has the potential to become a stronger one. We know very little of what he was like before he was deposed.

[Spedoinkel]

Sue makes some good points, and makes me want to see Rygel retaking the throne even more.

[faustus]

Originally Posted by Spedoinkel

Sue makes some good points, and makes me want to see Rygel retaking the throne even more.

could you imagine the utter mayhem?

[Darth Buddha]

Rygel made one hell of an effort to sell everyone out at the end of Season 1... and would have if not for Crias convincing him that he'd DIE rather than come out ahead.

To go that far down that path and then bail only to save your own skin? Would anybody NOT be concerned about being sold out by this fellow following that performance?

[fandom]

Originally Posted by Darth Buddha

Rygel made one hell of an effort to sell everyone out at the end of Season 1... and would have if not for Crias convincing him that he'd DIE rather than come out ahead.

That's the problem with being a comic relief character, the writers don't think you are entitled to be written consistently, they really, really should have thought of a better way to get Crais on Moya

But then, the scenes with Rygel in the command carrier were priceless, I can't but love the little guy.

[Spedoinkel]

I like how me and Buddha both have knife fights in our sig.

[Jeff O'Connor]

On the other hand, Rygel retaking the throne means 600 billion could side with the "good guys" in future conflicts with enemies. That's why I think he shouldn't get the throne until much later into the show (...well... I mean... after other things have happened in the future of the franchise.)

[bubblez]

Originally Posted by SueDonym

...He needs to learn to be a leader again, but I think he has the potential to become a stronger one. We know very little of what he was like before he was deposed.

Okay, more than decent post.... and good points. But, how is he at thumb wrestling?!

And as far as the torture, starvation, etc., would the inherent pang for survival being borne from such give the left shoulder voice a greater say over the right shoulder voice in dire circumstances? Duly noted that greed isn't the single, simple description of Rygel; however, you do make a great argument for self-preservation given his past experiences.

*blink, blink, innocence, innocence*

[Darth Buddha]

I LOVE THIS THREAD.

I'd like to point out that self-preservation is NOT inherently good or evil.

It is the weight you put on it. If you've got none, then you are a matyr waiting to happen over nothing. "I martyr myself to provide my friend Cheerios!" Not so good. On the other hand, to save the rest of your species? Sounds like a bargain to me.

Self-indulgence isn't necessarily bad either... but if you get there only on the body of one of your buddies, then the balance says you aren't a very good fellow to be around!

[Spedoinkel]

I still say evil can be rated on how much suffering you are willing to impose on those around you to achive you goals.

Of cousre that justifies both aguments of John and Scorpy being evil, and makes D'Argo the most nobel character. But I think we already knew that.

[Darth Buddha]

Actually, if you use STRICTLY utilitarian arguments of how much suffering for how much good out of a goal, you can get some pretty strange results.

If the death of one gladiator in the ring brings pleasure to thousands in the crowd, helps maintain social order, etc., you can actually call it MORAL depending on the weiights.

But some tough decisions also get worked out. Truman arguably saved hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops from death that would have occurred if we had to invade Japan. Even more (estimates ran close to a million) in terms of likely civilian Japanese deaths in terms of resistance and suicide deaths.

Scorpy was always on that plane, and as I've argued before is only recently learning that the golden rule migh apply more for one on one interactions. John is there ever so reluctantly. And he resents the hell out of it. He was pretty good at one on one golden rule applications, but now that he's having to do the utility thing he's not quite himself any more.

Rygel is probably more balanced at this point than either the hero or the anti-hero (regardless of whom you think is the here and who is the anti!).

[Spedoinkel]

Originally Posted by Darth Buddha

If the death of one gladiator in the ring brings pleasure to thousands in the crowd, helps maintain social order, etc., you can actually call it MORAL depending on the weiights.

Well that situation dosen't count because for the gladiators it's kill or be killed, and the audience is apeased either way.

[Darth Buddha]

But the Emperor sets that up, and the Emperor gives the thumbs up or the thumbs down.

After all, somebody put up a lot of cash to eract the Colleseum, and there were huge expenditures on Gladiator slaves in terms of aquisition and training.

On the other hand, for those who "volunteer" as free men.. you are dead on. That doesn't really count.